Wrexham (A) League - Saturday 16/12/06

[Magic Man Fan]

I, and I'm sure DD don't doubt his talent. If his attitude was good he would be in the team almost every match.

It's his repeated pathetic attitude and incidents in training that are making DD's decisions not to play him easy.

Charlton had enough they got rid. We, as a lower division club have to take the best talent we can. We tried and it appears to have failed, even under a good man manager like DD.

Let him rot in McDonalds where he will soon be serving. Then perhaps he will realise what a jumped up tit he is.

As you can see my opinion of him has changed. I can handle the on field incidents, but not off field, it's pathetic.

[Neil Ravenscroft]

Attitude is as an important part of the game as skill and physical attributes, Mark. I repeat, he's not as good as people think he is.

[Neuromantic]

P.S mark : I seem to remember your comments regarding Clayton Ince............







































:wink:

[Magic Man Fan]

I'm quite happy to change opinion on a player if they prove me wrong (unlike some).

PS - Sort the website out if you want some money to take to San Diego with you. :P

[philthesaddler]

I'm quite happy to change opinion on a player if they prove me wrong (unlike some).

PS - Sort the website out if you want some money to take to San Diego with you. :P

Ahem, hire a pro

[philthesaddler]

I'm quite happy to change opinion on a player if they prove me wrong (unlike some).

PS - Sort the website out if you want some money to take to San Diego with you. :P

Ahem, hire a pro

*edit* ... as in me, not a lady of the night

[Magic Man Fan]

I'm quite happy to change opinion on a player if they prove me wrong (unlike some).

PS - Sort the website out if you want some money to take to San Diego with you. :P

Ahem, hire a pro

*edit* ... as in me, not a lady of the night

I know which I'd prefer!

I will next time, straight over to saddlerdaz. :D :wink:

[Bernie]

People forget that Ishmel started 14 matches last season so we know how good he was then.

He was far from the finished article and often made wrong choices - as would be expected of such a young player - but during his spell in the starting line-up we had just about our best spell of results and very few on here thought that he was a weak link in the team.

There were plenty on this board who were critical of midfield players such as Mark Wright, Kris Taylor, Daryl Taylor, Paul Smith, and Michael Standing - but not that many who wanted Ishmel out of the team until he was sent off at Nottingham.

I find it very odd that DD has not given Ishmel even one start this season, not even in the meaningless Johnstone Paint Cup. There are three possible reasons - judgement; tactics; or discipline.

If DD judges Ishmel as not good enough to start then most of us who saw him play last year would disagree. How many people can say that they posted that he was not good enough for the first eleven when he was a regular last season in the division above? The answer would be a fraction of those who wanted Mark Wright out.

If DD thinks that using a player like Ishmel would be tactically wrong - then I feel he is being far too defensive, especially when you consider that with him in the side last season we had a reasonable run of results compared with how we did when he was dropped.

If is for disciplinary reasons that he is not in the side then that is very disappointing. DD does not seem to have been able to get the best out of Ishmel by leaving him out - maybe putting him in the side might help. If DD only uses punishment and not reward then he is not likely to get the best out of difficult players.

[Magic Man Fan]

Bernie, you don't seem to be reading between the lines very well.

I was one of the few thinking he deserved more of a chance.

I now think he is a complete prick and is lucky not to get thrown out of the club.

Geddit?

[philthesaddler]

Well I wish we do one of the other. If he is being a cock, then chuck him out. Wont make a difference, he's only made a handful of appearances so it's not as though we'll miss him. If he's behaved so badly that he's breached the code of conduct then the club can sack him.

[Magic Man Fan]

Well I wish we do one of the other. If he is being a cock, then chuck him out. Wont make a difference, he's only made a handful of appearances so it's not as though we'll miss him. If he's behaved so badly that he's breached the code of conduct then the club can sack him.

Why sack him when there's a chance a club could take him off our hands and we get something for him?

Like I said, wait until January, when we have chance to replace him. Right now we can't.

[Fray Bentos is God!]

Well I wish we do one of the other. If he is being a cock, then chuck him out. Wont make a difference, he's only made a handful of appearances so it's not as though we'll miss him. If he's behaved so badly that he's breached the code of conduct then the club can sack him.

Why sack him when there's a chance a club could take him off our hands and we get something for him?

Like I said, wait until January, when we have chance to replace him. Right now we can't.

The problem is we dont play him to replace him, at the mo it wouldnt be a loss if he was struck by lightning team wise

[Bernie]

Bernie, you don't seem to be reading between the lines very well.

I was one of the few thinking he deserved more of a chance.

I now think he is a complete prick and is lucky not to get thrown out of the club.

Geddit?

Of course I understood the drift of your posts. I assumed that he has recently been guilty of breaching discipline again. If that is the case then keeping him out of the team does not seem to be working. That could mean that Ishmel is uncontrollable or that DD's methods of applying discipline are ineffective. Constantly keeping him on bench has clearly not been successful.

Obviously the fault is with Ishmel for not behaving properly - but an analogy with schools can be useful. I would not want to be thought to support pupils who are suspended from school for misbehaviour - but it is undeniable that some teachers can handle disruptive pupils much better than others. A good teacher can often prevent the problems from blowing up - another teacher will find that the same pupils are impossible and their behaviour escalates until suspension is inevitable. Perhaps Ishmel is so fed up with his treatment by DD that he has reacted badly.

In any case Neil suggested that Ishmel may not be good enough to be in the side anyway - so I thought it relevant to address that point.

By the way MMF who on earth is going to give us money for someone with severe discipline problems who has not made the starting line up all season?

[Magic Man Fan]

Who said we'd get money for him?

We can't currently bring anyone in. We don't currently have any central midfielders, meaning options on the left are very limited until January. That's why we can't get rid yet.

Your analogy is pants to be honest Bernie. He was played last season and had problems.

DD has tried a different approach this season and when he has earned it he started to force his way in, then f***** up by getting pathetic bookings and letting everyone down in other incidents. It's not like he hasn't had a chance at all. DD was starting to introduce him more and more until the last time he did then had enough.

DD is an excellent man manager. Ishy deserved another chance under DD because Merson can't manage himself let alone anyone else. He's had the chance and has let everyone down.

We can't afford to have a disruptive player in a successful side. Let him become someone else's problem if he's not going to listen to advice.

He'll end up in McDonalds or prison like Leroy Williams.

[Neil Ravenscroft]

Who said we'd get money for him?

We can't currently bring anyone in. We don't currently have any central midfielders, meaning options on the left are very limited until January. That's why we can't get rid yet.

Your analogy is pants to be honest Bernie. He was played last season and had problems.

DD has tried a different approach this season and when he has earned it he started to force his way in, then f***** up by getting pathetic bookings and letting everyone down in other incidents. It's not like he hasn't had a chance at all. DD was starting to introduce him more and more until the last time he did then had enough.

DD is an excellent man manager. Ishy deserved another chance under DD because Merson can't manage himself let alone anyone else. He's had the chance and has let everyone down.

We can't afford to have a disruptive player in a successful side. Let him become someone else's problem if he's not going to listen to advice.

He'll end up in McDonalds or prison like Leroy Williams.

Exactly. Mark. Bernie is either being obtuse or just doesn't get the point. Demontagnac isn't good enough to be in the side for exactly the same reasons as he wasn't good enough last season and that's nothing to do with how well he can do with a football at his feet. He seems unwilling to learn, has a poor attitude and, quite frankly, is a liability on the training ground and, sometimes, on the pitch, when his temperament lets him down. They are all just as important parts of being a footballer as being able to kick a ball.

[Geordiesaddler]

The thing that Bernie seems unwilling to accept is that Ishy is a problem that DD inherited - one of many! Try looking at the bigger picture Bernie, we are top of the league by five points having barely got out of second gear all season. Many problems have been put right by this excellent manager, the most important being he has managed to stop the seemingly unstoppable rot that had set into every aspect of the club under Merson. Its incredible that people expect everything to be sorted yesterday under DD, the bloke is good but he's not a miracle worker. Some things, as MMF correctly points out, need time to be assesed and judged properly with a level head. We had two years of knee jerk judgements and look where it got us? Instead of nit-picking over this and that why not just wait and see what happens in the proper time scale that is required for some aspects of management and trust the judgement of the manager who inherited a club heading for The Conference, that now sits clear at the top of League two - heading for league One.

[Pedagogue]

I have mixed views on the subject of ASBO Ishy. I definitely do not share Neil's view on him as a player - he is clearly better than either of the Wrights, Sam or Bedeau (notwithstanding the latter apparently having a good game, at last, on Saturday). To an extent, he is a victim of DD's long-held defensive mindset, shown at ALL of his previous clubs, not just Walsall. He is a man who will not take risks - and, if it gets us out of this crap division, I, for one, am not complaining.

On the subject of his behaviour - ON the pitch, he has improved hugely but, if he is being a prize prat, off the pitch, then why is he still at the club? He can be sacked for breach of contract, WITHOUT compensation (which would be very little, in any event). A player with a bad attitude has no place in a happy dressing-room. I don't understand the argument that we cannot afford to get rid of him because he is not being used anyway, even when we have injury and suspension problems.

Either play him to give us an attacking dimension that we lack OR chuck out a bad influence within the club. At the moment, we are getting the worst of both worlds.

[derbysaddler]

Right, everyone keeps mentioning off field problems with Demo. Whats he done?

[Magic Man Fan]

I have mixed views on the subject of ASBO Ishy. I definitely do not share Neil's view on him as a player - he is clearly better than either of the Wrights, Sam or Bedeau (notwithstanding the latter apparently having a good game, at last, on Saturday). To an extent, he is a victim of DD's long-held defensive mindset, shown at ALL of his previous clubs, not just Walsall. He is a man who will not take risks - and, if it gets us out of this crap division, I, for one, am not complaining.

On the subject of his behaviour - ON the pitch, he has improved hugely but, if he is being a prize prat, off the pitch, then why is he still at the club? He can be sacked for breach of contract, WITHOUT compensation (which would be very little, in any event). A player with a bad attitude has no place in a happy dressing-room. I don't understand the argument that we cannot afford to get rid of him because he is not being used anyway, even when we have injury and suspension problems.

Either play him to give us an attacking dimension that we lack OR chuck out a bad influence within the club. At the moment, we are getting the worst of both worlds.

Completely agree with your first paragraph Bob.

But what if Kris Taylor and/or Danny Fox got sent off/injured in the next game or two? Where would that leave us if Ishmel had been chucked out?

If we get cover in January and he's still causing problems and still around then, like you I won't understand it but right now we're struggling for players and need everyone we can get, especially if they're talented and match winners like Ishmel can be.

[Geordiesaddler]

This is one of those situations where DD is damned if he does, and castigated if he doesn't. The point is why take risks?? Last season in a matter of weeks we rid ourselves of staunton, K. Taylor, Bennett, and ludicrously Harkness - that's four left-footers. Fox then went and got himself suspended and spent the rest of the season with zero competition for his shirt, and proceeded to perform like it. You don't get rid of players with Christmas looming.

As for his attitude and its supposed bad influence on the dressing room?
I'm not disputing his attitude problems, but arn't we making something of a quantum leap to assume this is having an adverse effect on the rest of the squad, to such an extent that it needs to be dealt with imediately??

Pardon me but I see absolutely no evidence of this as we are top of the league with two defeats all season. If it aint broke....etc.
Let's just get Christmas out of the way and see what transpires in January, we already have one new face to look forward to in Cederqvist, and if DD can replace Kinsella then on we go.

Have you considerd that sacking a young player the week before Christmas might actually have a detrimental effect on the morale of the squad? Why rock the boat when there is an opportunity in January to do things properly and professionally if needs must.

[Bernie]

Bernie is either being obtuse or just doesn't get the point. Demontagnac isn't good enough to be in the side for exactly the same reasons as he wasn't good enough last season and that's nothing to do with how well he can do with a football at his feet. He seems unwilling to learn, has a poor attitude and, quite frankly, is a liability on the training ground and, sometimes, on the pitch, when his temperament lets him down. They are all just as important parts of being a footballer as being able to kick a ball.

So when you said that Ishmel was "not good enough" you were not talking about how good he is at playing football, but how good he is as a person. I was not being obtuse but did completely miss the point you were making. Am I being thick when I assume that if someone says that a player is not good enough to make the team they are talking about his footballing ability rather than his moral worth? If you had said he is not reliable enough or not co-operative enough to be included then I would have understood - and might even have agreed.

The thing that Bernie seems unwilling to accept is that Ishy is a problem that DD inherited - one of many! Try looking at the bigger picture Bernie, we are top of the league by five points having barely got out of second gear all season. Many problems have been put right by this excellent manager, the most important being he has managed to stop the seemingly unstoppable rot that had set into every aspect of the club under Merson.

I have never denied that DD inherited the problems with Ishy - nor have I suggested that he caused them. I am quite sure that Demontagnac is the cause of all his troubles and certainly do not want to make any excuses for him.

I am a supporter of DD and think he is generally doing a very good job with a pretty average squad of players. One thing I like in particular is that he does not criticise his players in public. No doubt if Merson was in charge we would all have heard about the problems Ishmel has been causing this season. If DD had talked to the press about Ishy we would all no doubt sympathise with the manager, but it would hardly help Ishmel to settle down. I want to see Ishmel in the side - I think that he is good enough and that tactically he would improve our attacking options. There could well be very good reasons for keeping him on the bench for disciplinary reasons, but I am beginning to wonder if that tactic is working.

[sid swifty]

I have mixed views on the subject of ASBO Ishy. I definitely do not share Neil's view on him as a player - he is clearly better than either of the Wrights, Sam or Bedeau (notwithstanding the latter apparently having a good game, at last, on Saturday). To an extent, he is a victim of DD's long-held defensive mindset, shown at ALL of his previous clubs, not just Walsall. He is a man who will not take risks - and, if it gets us out of this crap division, I, for one, am not complaining.

On the subject of his behaviour - ON the pitch, he has improved hugely but, if he is being a prize prat, off the pitch, then why is he still at the club? He can be sacked for breach of contract, WITHOUT compensation (which would be very little, in any event). A player with a bad attitude has no place in a happy dressing-room. I don't understand the argument that we cannot afford to get rid of him because he is not being used anyway, even when we have injury and suspension problems.

Either play him to give us an attacking dimension that we lack OR chuck out a bad influence within the club. At the moment, we are getting the worst of both worlds.

Completely agree with your first paragraph Bob.

But what if Kris Taylor and/or Danny Fox got sent off/injured in the next game or two? Where would that leave us if Ishmel had been chucked out?

If we get cover in January and he's still causing problems and still around then, like you I won't understand it but right now we're struggling for players and need everyone we can get, especially if they're talented and match winners like Ishmel can be.

so whats ishy done thats so bad then Mark...or is it just a case of chinese whispers...tell us exactly what he has done if you know for certain...because a lot of people make statements like that without a shred of evidence then hide behind the "someone at the club told me in confidence" excuse... :?

[Pedagogue]

I have never denied that DD inherited the problems with Ishy - nor have I suggested that he caused them. I am quite sure that Demontagnac is the cause of all his troubles and certainly do not want to make any excuses for him.

I am a supporter of DD and think he is generally doing a very good job with a pretty average squad of players. One thing I like in particular is that he does not criticise his players in public. No doubt if Merson was in charge we would all have heard about the problems Ishmel has been causing this season. If DD had talked to the press about Ishy we would all no doubt sympathise with the manager, but it would hardly help Ishmel to settle down. I want to see Ishmel in the side - I think that he is good enough and that tactically he would improve our attacking options. There could well be very good reasons for keeping him on the bench for disciplinary reasons, but I am beginning to wonder if that tactic is working.

Completely agree, Bernie. I am full of admiration for the way DD has come in and stopped the rot in a club in free-fall. With very little recent experience of this level of football, he has turned round a team of under-performers and put smiles back on the faces of Saddlers' fans. To clear up the mess left by that useless pr*ck Merscum was always going to be a Herculean task. That said, I would still like to see Ishy brought in to liven up our lack-lustre attack!

[Magic Man Fan]

I have mixed views on the subject of ASBO Ishy. I definitely do not share Neil's view on him as a player - he is clearly better than either of the Wrights, Sam or Bedeau (notwithstanding the latter apparently having a good game, at last, on Saturday). To an extent, he is a victim of DD's long-held defensive mindset, shown at ALL of his previous clubs, not just Walsall. He is a man who will not take risks - and, if it gets us out of this crap division, I, for one, am not complaining.

On the subject of his behaviour - ON the pitch, he has improved hugely but, if he is being a prize prat, off the pitch, then why is he still at the club? He can be sacked for breach of contract, WITHOUT compensation (which would be very little, in any event). A player with a bad attitude has no place in a happy dressing-room. I don't understand the argument that we cannot afford to get rid of him because he is not being used anyway, even when we have injury and suspension problems.

Either play him to give us an attacking dimension that we lack OR chuck out a bad influence within the club. At the moment, we are getting the worst of both worlds.

Completely agree with your first paragraph Bob.

But what if Kris Taylor and/or Danny Fox got sent off/injured in the next game or two? Where would that leave us if Ishmel had been chucked out?

If we get cover in January and he's still causing problems and still around then, like you I won't understand it but right now we're struggling for players and need everyone we can get, especially if they're talented and match winners like Ishmel can be.

so whats ishy done thats so bad then Mark...or is it just a case of chinese whispers...tell us exactly what he has done if you know for certain...because a lot of people make statements like that without a shred of evidence then hide behind the "someone at the club told me in confidence" excuse... :?

No I won't say on here Sid. You know the score.

I won't make things common knowledge if I'm told in confidence because they won't tell me things again. Quite simple. If someone else wants to put it on here they can.

It seems from the amount of people talking about it at Wrexham that enough people saw what happened to confirm it's true.

[Duke]

I wonder what Ishy is doing behind the scenes , certainly on the field his temperment as improved . DD said on WM only last week , when the balance in midfield is right there will be a place for Ishy.
With all the problems DD inherited he's done an outstanding job , we cannot expect everything to be right it will take time .

[Registered Saddler]

It seems that this is one to re-visit at the end of January. If it is as cut and dried as some believe, then it seems we may well have a new left-sided player and Ishy out the door.

If not, then I will have to ask again how someone can be badly behaved enough to be out the first XI and not bad enough to be out the XVI. As said above quite succinctly, at the moment it is the worst of both worlds.