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Macclesfield Town (A) FA Cup 1st Round 13/11/06

Reports and reaction from the 2006-07 season as Walsall finished 1st (C) in League 2
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saddlerken
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Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:01 am

Magic Man Fan wrote:It is his choice to play with two central midfielders that hardly get over the halfway line.


That's the way he tells them to play and this is the worry for me, that he actually is very happy with it and that a replacement won't be forthcoming in that area, I hope I'm wrong

On the plus side of all of this, I find it difficult to believe we won't make the 3rd round now, can't see how we are going to be beaten in 2 home games

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:15 am

Stu wrote:From the TV viewpoint, Dobson actually had a good game, I was surprised at just how often he appeared to pop up and be in the right place to put in a tackle, break up an attack and then play a simple ball for Keats/Fox/Wright/Pead/Taylor to give possession away.


Spot on Stu...not just a tv viewpoint, that's exactly what he did, exactly what he was brought to Walsall to do.

Sorry MMF, I agree with a lot of things you say but your suggestion that Dobson is playing as poorly as Keates is just way, WAY off the mark. Keates is NOT a professional footballer. Hate to say it, but he's too small and lightweight to be a central midfielder. He offers NOTHING to the team. I think playing Fox on the left is a mistake but at least I can see that Money wants the solidity that that brings....but his continued use of a player as ineffective as Keates does baffle me.

On the plus points, I never thought I'd say this, but we really looked a lot better when Wrack came on and he gives us movement and a little class. I know he needs breaking in gently but I can't wait 'til we can use him game in, game out for 90mins. Which position though? Playing up with Butler or even replacing Keates? Definitely NOT on the wing I would have thought.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:17 am

So where do we go from here? We are, or more to the point Richard Money is, on the horns of a dilemma. On the one hand we are picking up results week in, week out, on the other hand the performances aren't particularly inspiring. Do we change things round to press home our advantage at the top of the table? Or do we stay as we are because it has worked for us so far? Stick or twist...

If there are two sides to the game - defence and attack - then at least we are getting 50 per cent of the performance spot on. Two goals conceded in eight games I think, including the one against higher division opposition in Swansea. We are virtually unbeatable. It seems we can put almost anyone in there at the back and still keep a clean sheet (even with Pead and Taylor both having poor games last night. Taylor was worse than Pead IMO).

However going forward we lack drive and purpose. I agree that Keates and Dobbo are just doing the same job in the middle, and we don't need both of them. I don't think one has been worse than the other, but Dobbo and Kinsella would be my choice of midfield two. I'd move Fox to left back and bring Ishy in on the left and see how we do. But there are plenty of other options - Wrack, Nicholls, Constable, Bradley - so there is no real need to keep fielding the same midfield and attack in every game. If nothing else, then they are going to get worn out if we are expecting each of them to play 50+ games this year.

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Duke
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Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:20 am

Spot on SS I've lost count of the number of times i've said exactly the same thing about Keates. Yes he's a local , yes he gives %100 , but he's simpely not strong enough.
Last edited by Duke on Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:22 am

It terms of creativity, last night was a repeat of what we've been seeing for the last few weeks. Wright was previously our only attacking threat. He isn't anymore. Whether that's because teams have started marking him more than they were before, or whether he's just going through a dodgy spell, I don't know. I do think he either needs a kick up the arse or dropping to the bench though, because we're carrying him at the moment.
One thing I think DD has got correct up to now, is allowing our attack-minded player to play on the right, and keeping it solid down the left. Many people have been calling for Ishmel to play ahead of Fox for weeks, but both Ishmel and Wright are too weak defensively for us to be able to afford to play both from the start. Maybe now is the time to drop Wright, replace him with Wrack or Bedeau and introduce Ishmel to the starting 11?

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:25 am

ShropsSaddler wrote:
Stu wrote:From the TV viewpoint, Dobson actually had a good game, I was surprised at just how often he appeared to pop up and be in the right place to put in a tackle, break up an attack and then play a simple ball for Keats/Fox/Wright/Pead/Taylor to give possession away.


Spot on Stu...not just a tv viewpoint, that's exactly what he did, exactly what he was brought to Walsall to do.

Sorry MMF, I agree with a lot of things you say but your suggestion that Dobson is playing as poorly as Keates is just way, WAY off the mark. Keates is NOT a professional footballer. Hate to say it, but he's too small and lightweight to be a central midfielder. He offers NOTHING to the team. I think playing Fox on the left is a mistake but at least I can see that Money wants the solidity that that brings....but his continued use of a player as ineffective as Keates does baffle me.

On the plus points, I never thought I'd say this, but we really looked a lot better when Wrack came on and he gives us movement and a little class. I know he needs breaking in gently but I can't wait 'til we can use him game in, game out for 90mins. Which position though? Playing up with Butler or even replacing Keates? Definitely NOT on the wing I would have thought.


Sorry but this is what I find so infuriating about the Dobson apologists, they all dislike Keates.

I don't favour either and would drop them both.

Dobson is no better, apart from the fact he is a bit taller. He doesn't make this count though as instead of tackling he just leans into people and commits a foul.

I saw him waste possession far too often again last night. In my opinion there is NO excuse for this. I wonder if he has vision problems, I really do.

I'm sure either one of them would be better alongside Kinsella as we saw at the start of the season, or now, Wrack as I have said for a couple of weeks.

My point is Dosh is reluctant to make the change and it is annoying, we can all see it.

I can't believe people are surprised about Wrack. I would replace, Sam with him, Keates with him, Dobson with him, Pead with him. He can pass a ball and has had some creativity....and ALWAYS has, despite his other faults.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:25 am

Mark, I'm afraid you're way off beam. Dobson had a very good game last night, doing the "dirty work". I don't deny he needs someone more creative alongside him, but I never can understand the criticism of players like him "passing it sideways". That's exactly the job he is there to do, get into space, receive the ball, pass it on, get into space again. He could hardly help it if he was playing three central midfielders on his own last night. At least DD appreciated that and went 4 4 1 1 to try and give him a little more support.

I'm also afraid you are criticising Bedeau for doing the job he's been asked to do (keep it tight) and, quite frankly, to say that Sam should have taken his second chance on last night instead of shooting early means that you haven't seen the replays. He did exactly right, surprised the keeper and was a little unlucky.

Also, playing Wrack in four different positions might tire him a little!

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:32 am

Excellent post Registered Saddler, you are absolutely spot on, performances aren't great but why change a winning formula? However, I would argue that we are getting to stretching point in that it's becomming very difficult for us to score, maybe the run is coming to an end, will DD anticipate it?

Interesting, far more so than last nights game

Unbeatable? I think you may be right at this level, that in itself is some achievment

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:36 am

Magic Man Fan wrote:Sorry but this is what I find so infuriating about the Dobson apologists, they all dislike Keates.


I don't dislike Keates...how could you? He's a local lad and he gives 110%. Fact is though, he's just not good enough to be a professional footballer.

Magic Man Fan wrote:Dobson is no better, apart from the fact he is a bit taller. He doesn't make this count though as instead of tackling he just leans into people and commits a foul.


No, no, no! Dobson is twice the player Keates is (thinking about it, more than that!). As Neil says, he's having to play midfield on his own. Watch Keates, he chases around like a headless chicken, leaving "his man" unmarked, and leaving Dobson with 2 players to mark.

Magic Man Fan wrote:My point is Dosh is reluctant to make the change and it is annoying, we can all see it.


Agree with you there...it is a little baffling. It is time a different option was tried. Let's give him the benefit....perhaps he's waiting for Wrack to regain full fitness?

Magic Man Fan wrote:I can't believe people are surprised about Wrack. I would replace, Sam with him, Keates with him, Dobson with him, Pead with him. He can pass a ball and has had some creativity....and ALWAYS has, despite his other faults.


I humbly apologise....Wrack was definitely my "love to hate" player before his injury because I'd felt for several seasons, he'd played way below his potential. But credit to him, he's won me around already with his displays and his courage in coming back from such an horrific injury and being prepared to go into challenges like he did in the last home match.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:52 am

Magic Man Fan wrote:
ShropsSaddler wrote:
Stu wrote:From the TV viewpoint, Dobson actually had a good game, I was surprised at just how often he appeared to pop up and be in the right place to put in a tackle, break up an attack and then play a simple ball for Keats/Fox/Wright/Pead/Taylor to give possession away.


Spot on Stu...not just a tv viewpoint, that's exactly what he did, exactly what he was brought to Walsall to do.

Sorry MMF, I agree with a lot of things you say but your suggestion that Dobson is playing as poorly as Keates is just way, WAY off the mark. Keates is NOT a professional footballer. Hate to say it, but he's too small and lightweight to be a central midfielder. He offers NOTHING to the team. I think playing Fox on the left is a mistake but at least I can see that Money wants the solidity that that brings....but his continued use of a player as ineffective as Keates does baffle me.

On the plus points, I never thought I'd say this, but we really looked a lot better when Wrack came on and he gives us movement and a little class. I know he needs breaking in gently but I can't wait 'til we can use him game in, game out for 90mins. Which position though? Playing up with Butler or even replacing Keates? Definitely NOT on the wing I would have thought.


Sorry but this is what I find so infuriating about the Dobson apologists, they all dislike Keates.

I don't favour either and would drop them both.

Dobson is no better, apart from the fact he is a bit taller. He doesn't make this count though as instead of tackling he just leans into people and commits a foul.

I saw him waste possession far too often again last night. In my opinion there is NO excuse for this. I wonder if he has vision problems, I really do.

I'm sure either one of them would be better alongside Kinsella as we saw at the start of the season, or now, Wrack as I have said for a couple of weeks.

My point is Dosh is reluctant to make the change and it is annoying, we can all see it.

I can't believe people are surprised about Wrack. I would replace, Sam with him, Keates with him, Dobson with him, Pead with him. He can pass a ball and has had some creativity....and ALWAYS has, despite his other faults.


Sorry Mark . can't agree on this one . Dobson is twice the player Keates is
I don't dislike Keates or any Walsall player . I'm not a big fan of Wrack but feel he would partner Dobson much better .

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:00 am

We're going to have to disagree about Dobson. I don't judge him against Keates. I judge him on his own ability and his distribution is worse than Roper's, even his supposedly simple short passes. That's a very poor quality for a central midfielder who is supposed to be the one tidying things up.

I just want to see the change made, if we're not complaining about Keates, it's Dobson so why can we all see the problem that needs changing and it isn't even attempted? I appreciate we're not losing games and it's difficult to change a winning side but each week, less and less chances are being created. It's going to backfire it is allowed to continue.

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:to say that Sam should have taken his second chance on last night instead of shooting early means that you haven't seen the replays. He did exactly right, surprised the keeper and was a little unlucky.


Ah right, there was me thinking a striker is unlucky if he hits the target and the keeper saves the shot. Silly me. No excuse when not challenged by a defender not to hit the target when inside the box.

A weaker more accurate shot would be more appreciated, especially against a keeper who looked poor. We didn't test him once.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:10 am

And the reason Dobson struggles sometimes is that he's under pressure because he's on his own, because of the lack of support from Keates. You could go round and round for days on this.

As for the Sam comment, you haven't seen the replays:-

"No excuse when not challenged by a defender not to hit the target when inside the box".

He was outside the penalty area and was being challenged by a defender, who was on the inside line between him and the goal. Watch it again.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:18 am

Why are people so worried? OK, the last few weeks have not installed much confidence into any of us but you dont become a bad team overnight. All teams have bad spells during the season (even Chelsea) and we are having ours at the moment. The time to worry is when your having your bad run and losing games. We have not lost a game in 13 games and for a team that is having a "bad run", that isnt bad.

DD is in the Graydon mould, he wants results more than good performances and I will settle for that also.

I do agree with the points above about Pead and Keates though, and even to a certain extent Fox. All three of these players were just as bad during the demise under Merscum and I just cant see the logic behind keeping them in the team when Asbo, Kinsella,Wrack and Westwood are all capable of doing a job until January.

Just calm down....

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:24 am

wfc_2uk wrote:I do agree with the points above about Pead and Keates though, and even to a certain extent Fox. All three of these players were just as bad during the demise under Merscum and I just cant see the logic behind keeping them in the team when Asbo, Kinsella,Wrack and Westwood are all capable of doing a job until January.


Playing devil's advocate;

Wrack - on his way back from a bad injury, got to get him settled in gently
Westwood - not available due to injury, will surely be in the side again if fit
Kinsella - dare I suggest he doesn't want to play and wants to concentrate on his coaching?
Ishmel - well, yes, the one that I can make no "excuses" for, deserves a chance but Mr Money doesn't seem to want to give it to him.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:26 am

The only comparison you could make between Money and Graydon is theyre both bald. Graydon became very negative in his last dozen or so games, but prior to that, our football was simple, but very exciting. The players were much more willing to get forward and take a chance in Graydon's day, last night, Keates, Dobson, fox and wright, didn't want to know once the ball was over the half way line.

Like MMF says, wright and fox last night didn't play as wingers as they didn't once get past their men, rarely got crosses in a provided no support for the front two.

Under Graydon we had a much better idea of how to break sides down, we appear, under Money, to have lost any idea of how to break people down. Even in the 10 minute spell we had after half time, before the balls came on, we still looked very nervy in the last third.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:27 am

Neil Ravenscroft wrote:He was outside the penalty area and was being challenged by a defender, who was on the inside line between him and the goal. Watch it again.


And it's his distinct lack of pace, strength and laziness that meant he didn't continue his run and finish from inside the box.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:31 am

wfc_2uk wrote:Why are people so worried? OK, the last few weeks have not installed much confidence into any of us but you dont become a bad team overnight. All teams have bad spells during the season (even Chelsea) and we are having ours at the moment. The time to worry is when your having your bad run and losing games. We have not lost a game in 13 games and for a team that is having a "bad run", that isnt bad.


I agree that if its a bad spell we shouldn't be worried.
But i think what a lot of people are saying is that we can't keep playing like that indefinitely because sooner or later we will come unstuck.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:31 am

wfc_2uk wrote:Why are people so worried? OK, the last few weeks have not installed much confidence into any of us but you dont become a bad team overnight. All teams have bad spells during the season (even Chelsea) and we are having ours at the moment. The time to worry is when your having your bad run and losing games. We have not lost a game in 13 games and for a team that is having a "bad run", that isnt bad.

DD is in the Graydon mould, he wants results more than good performances and I will settle for that also.

I do agree with the points above about Pead and Keates though, and even to a certain extent Fox. All three of these players were just as bad during the demise under Merscum and I just cant see the logic behind keeping them in the team when Asbo, Kinsella,Wrack and Westwood are all capable of doing a job until January.

Just calm down....


I agree with the sentiment of this post Kev.

However, the game plan is fine, but for it to work well enough to get promoted (average of 2 points per game) we're going to have to win games. ( I appreciate this doesn't apply to Cup games ;))

To win games you have to score, to score you have to create chances, normally at least a few decent ones, several if Sam is "playing".

Chances created is dropping alarmingly. We started so well because the defending was excellent and we were getting forward and making lots of chances which Butler will always take and the other players will chip in.

This has stopped and MUST be addressed or we won't score enough goals to win games.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:33 am

Magic Man Fan wrote:
wfc_2uk wrote:Why are people so worried? OK, the last few weeks have not installed much confidence into any of us but you dont become a bad team overnight. All teams have bad spells during the season (even Chelsea) and we are having ours at the moment. The time to worry is when your having your bad run and losing games. We have not lost a game in 13 games and for a team that is having a "bad run", that isnt bad.

DD is in the Graydon mould, he wants results more than good performances and I will settle for that also.

I do agree with the points above about Pead and Keates though, and even to a certain extent Fox. All three of these players were just as bad during the demise under Merscum and I just cant see the logic behind keeping them in the team when Asbo, Kinsella,Wrack and Westwood are all capable of doing a job until January.

Just calm down....


I agree with the sentiment of this post Kev.

However, the game plan is fine, but for it to work well enough to get promoted (average of 2 points per game) we're going to have to win games. ( I appreciate this doesn't apply to Cup games ;))

To win games you have to score, to score you have to create chances, normally at least a few decent ones, several if Sam is "playing".

Chances created is dropping alarmingly. We started so well because the defending was excellent and we were getting forward and making lots of chances which Butler will always take and the other players will chip in.

This has stopped and MUST be addressed or we won't score enough goals to win games.


You explain it so much better than i could MMF! :lol:

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:05 pm

FWIW... My two-pennieth...

I would like to see one of our Centre Midfielders given a little more freedom to join in with the forwards.

Perhaps Wrack may take up this role, when fully up to speed.

I think some of the criticisms of Dobbo and Keates are a little OTT.
- Individually, I think they both more than hold there own in this league... its just our style of play, they are just not complimentary to each others game.

For me we need either Wrack in there with them in a 5 man midfield, providing the link between Midfield and attack.... or we take one of Deano or Dobbo out.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:14 pm

KJC wrote:I think some of the criticisms of Dobbo and Keates are a little OTT.
- Individually, I think they both more than hold there own in this league... its just our style of play, they are just not complimentary to each others game.

For me we need either Wrack in there with them in a 5 man midfield, providing the link between Midfield and attack.... or we take one of Deano or Dobbo out.


Exactly KJC. Both ARE good players in their own right in this league, they have proven it both many times.

However our system of play doesn't help either of them. Both are being told to site which confuses the issue as effectively they're both going for the same balls because it's instinct, or both leaving it because they don't know who should be dealing with is.

If DD is so intent on them playing together which I think is wrong then I think he needs to decide who should sit and who should go forward, not ask them both to do both all of the time.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:26 pm

Magic Man Fan wrote:
wfc_2uk wrote:Why are people so worried? OK, the last few weeks have not installed much confidence into any of us but you dont become a bad team overnight. All teams have bad spells during the season (even Chelsea) and we are having ours at the moment. The time to worry is when your having your bad run and losing games. We have not lost a game in 13 games and for a team that is having a "bad run", that isnt bad.

DD is in the Graydon mould, he wants results more than good performances and I will settle for that also.

I do agree with the points above about Pead and Keates though, and even to a certain extent Fox. All three of these players were just as bad during the demise under Merscum and I just cant see the logic behind keeping them in the team when Asbo, Kinsella,Wrack and Westwood are all capable of doing a job until January.

Just calm down....


I agree with the sentiment of this post Kev.

However, the game plan is fine, but for it to work well enough to get promoted (average of 2 points per game) we're going to have to win games. ( I appreciate this doesn't apply to Cup games ;))

To win games you have to score, to score you have to create chances, normally at least a few decent ones, several if Sam is "playing".

Chances created is dropping alarmingly. We started so well because the defending was excellent and we were getting forward and making lots of chances which Butler will always take and the other players will chip in.

This has stopped and MUST be addressed or we won't score enough goals to win games.


I agree that the goals have stop going in but at the other end we really dont look like we will conceed any neither. One will give sooner rather than later and I know which one it will be but for the time being I am being positive (afterall why shouldnt we be?). Promotion under Graydon was all about organisation and grinding out alot of 1-0 wins, I for one believe that will happen this season.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:30 pm

wfc_2uk wrote:I agree that the goals have stop going in but at the other end we really dont look like we will conceed any neither. One will give sooner rather than later and I know which one it will be but for the time being I am being positive (afterall why shouldnt we be?). Promotion under Graydon was all about organisation and grinding out alot of 1-0 wins, I for one believe that will happen this season.


Why does one have to give? If we keep playing with little attacking intent we won't create chances to score goals and win the games 1-0 like Graydon's teams used to. We used to hit teams on the break under Graydon, we did early this season, we aren't now, that's why we're not scoring as many.

It's not rocket science.

Lot's of 0-0 results won't get us promoted. 1-0 wins will but we have to create more chances.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:30 pm

SaddlerSteve wrote:
wfc_2uk wrote:Why are people so worried? OK, the last few weeks have not installed much confidence into any of us but you dont become a bad team overnight. All teams have bad spells during the season (even Chelsea) and we are having ours at the moment. The time to worry is when your having your bad run and losing games. We have not lost a game in 13 games and for a team that is having a "bad run", that isnt bad.


I agree that if its a bad spell we shouldn't be worried.
But i think what a lot of people are saying is that we can't keep playing like that indefinitely because sooner or later we will come unstuck.


I just think its pointless Steve worrying about something that hasnt happened yet. When it does happen then worry about it, until then just take each game as it comes.

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:34 pm

I think we should just trust in dickie dye-doe and get behind the lads... :?

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:43 pm

sid swifty wrote:I think we should just trust in dickie dye-doe and get behind the lads... :?


I certainly do trust him :wink:

Too much emphasis is being put on our "negative" tactics fro my liking.

When DD came on board, he saw a team that was VERY poor defensively... Think back, we were awful at defending set-pieces... awful at tracking the runners from Midfield.

DD came in, and has only done what every decent manager does... shore things up at the back, get some confidence in your defensive set up and work forwards from there.

DD has provided us with a good solid defensive base, from which we can build going forward.

We have come a long way in such a small amount of time.

I have every confidence that DD will get it right.

The Future Is So Bright!!!! :D

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Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:50 pm

sid swifty wrote:I think we should just trust in dickie dye-doe and get behind the lads... :?


You jest Sid but actually, I think that's exactly what we DO have to do this season......Mr Money has taken a side that quite a lot of us thought could go straight through this division and into the conference and placed them at the top of the table. No, we're not playing great football and there are some worrying signs but fact is he's still managing, on average, to get us wins at home and draws away....that WILL win us promotion.

In those circumstances, we should trust him to continue getting the results AND trust that he'll be looking to strengthen the squad in the right areas in January.

Now when people were saying the same last season.....well, need I say more!!

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WarsawPact
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Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:52 pm

DD has obviously got the defensive side of the game sorted out, but attacking-wise we are grinding to a halt.
The solution is obvious - bring Merson back in as an offensive coach.

MISOP
Merson In, Save Our Promotion!



(Ow! Ow! Stop hitting me.)

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SaddlerSteve
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Location: Milton Keynes

Tue Nov 14, 2006 12:53 pm

wfc_2uk wrote:
SaddlerSteve wrote:
wfc_2uk wrote:Why are people so worried? OK, the last few weeks have not installed much confidence into any of us but you dont become a bad team overnight. All teams have bad spells during the season (even Chelsea) and we are having ours at the moment. The time to worry is when your having your bad run and losing games. We have not lost a game in 13 games and for a team that is having a "bad run", that isnt bad.


I agree that if its a bad spell we shouldn't be worried.
But i think what a lot of people are saying is that we can't keep playing like that indefinitely because sooner or later we will come unstuck.


I just think its pointless Steve worrying about something that hasnt happened yet. When it does happen then worry about it, until then just take each game as it comes.


I think its a case of realising that something needs to be done before we actually end up losing a game.
The people that are complaining about the performances are just anxious that its not left too late, as it often was under our last manager.
I have every faith that Dickie knows what needs to be done and will make changes accordingly.

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Magic Man Fan
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Location: Warning. Some posts may cause offence...to the over sensitive or slow.

Tue Nov 14, 2006 1:16 pm

wfc_2uk wrote:
SaddlerSteve wrote:
wfc_2uk wrote:Why are people so worried? OK, the last few weeks have not installed much confidence into any of us but you dont become a bad team overnight. All teams have bad spells during the season (even Chelsea) and we are having ours at the moment. The time to worry is when your having your bad run and losing games. We have not lost a game in 13 games and for a team that is having a "bad run", that isnt bad.


I agree that if its a bad spell we shouldn't be worried.
But i think what a lot of people are saying is that we can't keep playing like that indefinitely because sooner or later we will come unstuck.


I just think its pointless Steve worrying about something that hasnt happened yet. When it does happen then worry about it, until then just take each game as it comes.


I have been the saying the same myself for a while now and I still agree. But it is happeneing because the chances are becoming less by the week and that WILL affect results.

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